The Catcher in the Rye Ch. 17.2: The Date That Was Already Over Before It Started | Banned Books Comedy

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Welcome to Band Camp.

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I'm Jennifer.

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And I'm Dan, and this is the podcast where we read band books and try to figure out why they were banned in the first place.

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This season we're reading The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger.

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Man, this is a fun book and you should consider this a quick spoiler warning because Jennifer is about to start reading from the book out loud word for word, so you know anything coming outta her mouth is gonna be a spoil.

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If you're new here, you're totally fine starting out here.

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You shouldn't feel like you walked into the middle of a movie because we're gonna get you oriented real quick, thanks to our secret weapon.

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More on him in a second.

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That's right.

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It's a him.

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Now.

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If you get confused, there's a good chance we're gonna be confused too, because neither of us have ever read the book before.

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All right, let's bring in our secret weapon.

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We have ourselves a robot buddy.

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Boy, roll it in here.

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Look at this guy.

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We have a fact checking robot.

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He is also our booth announcer.

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He is going to fill everyone in on where we left off last time in the catcher in the rye.

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Do it big bolty.

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Previously on Band Camp Holden watched girls in a lobby and imagined their sad futures, told Sally Hazy loved her and meant it and didn't mean it at the same time, and then watched her flirt with some Andover phony named George, who stepped on a woman's foot and broke every toe in her body, whatever that means.

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Jennifer said The way Salinger writes is bullshit.

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She's been saying that for three chapters.

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She keeps reading anyway when a person who has been holding something together for a very long time finally stops holding it together.

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It doesn't look like an explosion.

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It looks like a suggestion, a quiet one in a bar.

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Take it away, Jennifer.

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Woo.

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Thank you robot.

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And with that being said, scary book people.

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Let's continue with chapter 17 of JD Salinger's, the Catcher in the Rye Listen.

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She said, what time do you have to be home for dinner? I mean, are you in a terrible hurry or anything? Do you have to be home at any special time? Me? No.

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No special time.

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I said, well, she has no idea.

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He really has no special time.

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Because what what we're gonna do on this date, I'm gonna probably cram about 14 days into the next six hours, be prepared for no sleep, probably three or four fights, and about 24 cab drives.

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Are you ready? Me? No, no special time.

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I said truer words were never spoken.

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Why? Well, let's go ice skating at Radio City.

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That's the kind of ideas she always had.

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Fun ideas.

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Yeah, something fun.

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Ice skating at Radio City? You mean right now? Well, just for an hour or so.

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Don't you want to? If you don't want to.

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I didn't say I didn't want to.

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I said sure.

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If you want to.

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Do you mean it? Don't just say it if you don't mean it.

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I mean, I don't give a darn one way or the other.

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This is typical, behavior, not just of teenagers.

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Like, you bring up something, you wanna do this, the other person's like, uh, you this, and you're like, oh no, not if you don't want to, but then they end up doing Yeah, I'm not saying I don't want to, you really wanna do this, so, I don't think anyone ever figures that out, like this book is supposed to be about holding, figuring out how to navigate these situations.

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Be around other people, take girls on dates.

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No one ever figures it out.

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It's fine.

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That's why I think most of us go through life, probably about a 20% confusion level.

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we're basically all confused about 20%? I'm, I up to 22%.

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then maybe 22, 23, if we could all just agree, that's fine, but I think back in Holden's time you were maybe not allowed to admit that or something.

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It's kinda like Trump, like in Trump, in Trump days.

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The old, you know, white conservative, When America was great.

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Yeah, back when America was not so much for you.

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Black people don't worry about that.

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But, uh, for the most part, America was fantastic and you, you gaze also You, you nothing.

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Nothing was truthful.

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Like the fact that, you know, I mean, racism is so untruthful, anti-gay, like, denying what people are, or that they're fine.

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it all goes hand in hand with denying that you could be confused about something.

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I don't know, don't just say it if you don't mean it.

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I mean, I don't give a darn one way or the other.

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Not much.

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She didn't.

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You can rent those darling little skating skirts.

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Old Sally said Jeanette Colts did it last week.

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That's why she was always so hot to go.

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She wanted to see herself in one of those little skirts that just come down over their button all.

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So we went, so she's showing off her bun, her buns? Wow.

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And, and they're designed so it will show butt cheek.

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On ice, you're gonna fall down on the ice.

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but those good doing it though.

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So we went and after they gave us our skates, they gave Sally this little blue butt witcher of a dress to wear that a butt witcher.

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Robot please, but Witcher.

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Is witch.

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Not a typo.

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Three Ts intentional.

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In the 1940s, ice rinks like Rockefeller sent to rented short skating dresses along with the skates, little flared things designed for movement.

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Holden looked at Sally and hers and his brain did what a 17-year-old brain does.

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It invented a word and credit where credit is due.

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It's a better word than anything in the dictionary, but twitcher.

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I have to admit it.

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And don't think she didn't know it.

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She kept walking ahead of me so that I'd see how cute her little ass looked.

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It did look pretty cute too.

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I have to admit it.

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See, he, I, he's just having a hard time between being a human and being an animal.

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Like this is all animalistic behavior, when you're 16 or 17, there are like so many hormones thrown at you.

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Yeah.

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The funny part was though we were the worst skaters on the whole goddamn rink.

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I mean the worst.

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And there were some Lulus too Old Sally's ankles kept bending in until they were practically on the ice.

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They not only looked stupid as hell, but they probably hurt like hell too.

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I know mine did.

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Mine were killing me.

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We must have looked gorgeous.

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And what made it worse? There were at least a couple of hundred rubber necks that didn't have anything better to do than stand around and watch everybody falling all over themselves.

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That would be me.

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I'd be in that group.

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Look at this dummy.

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Look at what, what he's doing over there.

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do you want to get a table inside and have a drink or something? I said to her, finally, that's the most marvelous idea you've had all day.

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She said, I'm getting tired of that too.

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She was killing herself.

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It was brutal.

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I really felt sorry for her.

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We took off her goddamn skates and went inside this bar where you can get drinks and watch the skaters in just your stocking feet.

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As soon as we sat down, old Sally took off her gloves and I gave her a cigarette.

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She wasn't looking too happy.

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The waiter came up and I ordered a coke for her.

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She didn't drink and a scotch and soda for myself, but the son of a bitch wouldn't bring it to me, so I had a Coke too.

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Then I sort of started lighting matches.

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I do that quite a lot.

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When I'm in a certain mood, I sort of let them burn down till I can't hold them anymore.

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Then I drop them in the ashtray.

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All right.

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That's a nice pastime to have Holden Lightning matches.

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Listen, and by the way, yet another adult who refuses to give you a drink, what does that tell you, Now, what does that tell you? Gotta start paying attention to the adults, you know, Then all of a sudden, out of a clear blue sky, old Sally said, look, I have to know are you or aren't you coming over to help me trim the tree? Christmas Eve? I have to know she was still being snotty on account of her ankles when she was skating.

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I wrote you.

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I would.

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You've asked me that about 20 times.

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Sure.

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I am.

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I mean, I have to know.

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She said, I know people like this All of a sudden I quit lighting matches and sort of leaned nearer to her over the table.

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I had quite a few topics on my mind.

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Hey, Sally.

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I said what? She said she was looking at some girl on the other side of the room.

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Did you ever get fed up? I said, I mean, did you ever get scared that everything was going to go so lousy unless you did something? like change? Does that mean he, I gotta do something or gonna go all to shit.

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That's what he's talking about, right? Yeah.

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all about making changes and not thinking about him.

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Sometimes Mm-hmm.

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he's always been kind of chaotic, but these few days are when like things really hit the fan.

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He's spinning outta control.

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Yeah.

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Have you ever had a time in your life where Things weren't this outta control.

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No, No.

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No, no, no.

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Like.

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I literally like in this position where you're young and you don't know, you're just kind of floating around and things seem very chaotic and nothing makes sense, well, I mean like high school, I had a little plan going on, and it seemed like my plan, I knew what I was doing, but at the same time, a lot of people around me were, were like, oh, that plan's not gonna work.

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And it was like, it seems really natural for me to go down this road.

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And even my parents were like, eh, that that the road you wanna go down really? And I mean, I look up to my parents, I think they're really smart.

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sometimes in life you can really think you know what you're doing.

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And you can have confidence, but when all of the people you look up to or where you normally get advice from, if they have like a completely wildly different take on it, it's pretty easy to start self-doubting yourself and feeling uneasy about your entire plan.

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I don't even think he has a plan.

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he knows what he doesn't want.

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He doesn't want the plan that society has for him.

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he knows.

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He doesn't want that plan.

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Did you ever get fed up? I said, I mean, did you ever get scared that everything was going to go so lousy unless you did something? I mean, do you like school and all that stuff? It's a terrific boar.

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I know it's a terrific boar, but do you hate it, is what I mean? Well, I don't exactly hate it.

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You always have to.

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That's important.

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You always have to.

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Like, he's not even listening to Sally.

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Kinda seems like it.

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He doesn't care about her answer.

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Right.

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He, he wants, he wants to tell her his answer.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Well, I hate it.

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Boy do I hate it.

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I said, but it isn't just that, it's everything.

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I hate living in New York and all taxi cabs and Madison Avenue buses with the driver and all always yelling at you to get out of the rear door and being introduced to phony guys that called the Lent angels.

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Going up and down in elevators when you just want to go outside and guys fitting your pants all the time at Brooks and people always don't shout, please.

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Old Sally said, which was very funny because I wasn't even shouting.

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She's embarrassed by this.

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He says, this crazy teen is making a scene, Take cars.

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I said, I said it in this very quiet voice.

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Take most people, they're crazy about cars.

177
00:12:12,424.92082177 --> 00:12:18,694.92082177
They worry if they get a little scratch on them and they're always talking about how many miles they get to a gallon.

178
00:12:18,912.05142429 --> 00:12:24,612.05142429
and if they get a brand new car already, they start thinking about trading it in for one that's even newer.

179
00:12:24,806.58631592 --> 00:12:26,486.58631592
This is a different panel than I've had.

180
00:12:26,486.58631592 --> 00:12:27,686.58631592
Everything's computer.

181
00:12:28,193.02760061 --> 00:12:32,948.02760061
Or whatever It's all computer.

182
00:12:36,124.39609608 --> 00:12:38,74.39609608
I don't even like old cars.

183
00:12:38,164.39609608 --> 00:12:40,24.39609608
I mean, they don't even interest me.

184
00:12:40,572.93519269 --> 00:12:42,672.93519269
I'd rather have a goddamn horse.

185
00:12:43,92.93519269 --> 00:12:45,522.93519269
A horse is at least human for God's sake.

186
00:12:45,822.93519269 --> 00:12:49,782.93519269
A horse, you can at least, I don't even know what you're talking about.

187
00:12:49,782.93519269 --> 00:12:52,422.93519269
Old Sally said you jumped from one.

188
00:12:52,722.93519269 --> 00:12:53,622.93519269
You know something.

189
00:12:53,622.93519269 --> 00:12:58,662.93519269
I said, you're probably the only reason I'm in New York right now or anywhere.

190
00:12:59,112.93519269 --> 00:13:05,505.75831196
If you weren't around, I'd probably be someplace way the hell off in the woods or some goddamn place.

191
00:13:05,731.55893299 --> 00:13:08,281.55893298
You're the only reason I'm around practically.

192
00:13:08,941.55893299 --> 00:13:09,721.55893299
You're sweet.

193
00:13:09,721.55893299 --> 00:13:13,591.55893299
She said, wait, I don't know if that's not a compliment.

194
00:13:15,740.67639022 --> 00:13:16,340.67639022
You're sweet.

195
00:13:16,340.67639022 --> 00:13:20,240.67639022
She said, but you could tell she wanted me to change the damn subject.

196
00:13:20,439.41639565 --> 00:13:22,449.41639565
You ought to go to a boys' school sometime.

197
00:13:23,14.41639565 --> 00:13:24,4.41639565
Try it sometime.

198
00:13:24,4.41639565 --> 00:13:26,14.41639565
I said it's full of phonies.

199
00:13:26,74.41639565 --> 00:13:32,944.41639565
And all you do is study so you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddamn Cadillac someday.

200
00:13:33,304.41639565 --> 00:13:37,534.41639565
And you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses.

201
00:13:37,824.51654361 --> 00:13:45,864.51654361
And all you do is talk about girls and liquor and sex all day and everybody sticks together in those dirty little goddamn cliques.

202
00:13:46,209.51654361 --> 00:13:53,859.51654361
The guys that are on the basketball team stick together, the Catholic stick together, the goddamn intellectual stick together.

203
00:13:54,129.51654361 --> 00:13:56,379.51654361
The guys that play bridge stick together.

204
00:13:56,859.51654361 --> 00:14:00,609.51654361
Even the guys that belong to the goddamn book of the month Club stick together.

205
00:14:00,939.51654361 --> 00:14:07,774.07901508
If you try to have a little intelligent, now, listen, old Sally said lots of boys Get more outta school than that.

206
00:14:08,171.34219044 --> 00:14:09,11.34219044
I agree.

207
00:14:09,251.34219044 --> 00:14:09,701.34219044
I agree.

208
00:14:09,701.34219044 --> 00:14:13,241.34219044
They do some of them, but that's all I get out of it.

209
00:14:13,241.34219044 --> 00:14:14,891.34219044
See, that's my point.

210
00:14:15,311.34219044 --> 00:14:17,351.34219044
That's exactly my goddamn point.

211
00:14:17,441.34219044 --> 00:14:21,360.75920242
I said I don't hardly get anything out of anything.

212
00:14:21,694.50481724 --> 00:14:22,984.50481724
I'm in bad shape.

213
00:14:23,126.57402055 --> 00:14:24,356.57402055
I'm in lousy shape.

214
00:14:24,386.57402055 --> 00:14:26,894.89760904
Oh man, he's asking for help here.

215
00:14:26,894.89760904 --> 00:14:29,714.89760904
I'm, I'm worried he's, he is asking the wrong person.

216
00:14:29,804.89760904 --> 00:14:32,389.89760904
Sally is not the person to help Yeah.

217
00:14:32,466.97265925 --> 00:14:33,456.97265925
I'm in bad shape.

218
00:14:33,486.97265925 --> 00:14:34,506.97265925
I'm dying here.

219
00:14:34,686.97265925 --> 00:14:36,126.97265925
Ah, you're cute.

220
00:14:43,599.27353939 --> 00:14:45,789.27353939
Then all of a sudden, I got this idea.

221
00:14:46,479.27353939 --> 00:14:48,729.27353939
Look, I said, here's my idea.

222
00:14:49,209.27353939 --> 00:14:56,558.06300938
How would you like to get the hell out of here? I know this guy down in Greenwich Village that we can borrow his car for a couple of weeks.

223
00:14:57,638.06300938 --> 00:14:59,940.90752588
Why not take a horse? Yeah.

224
00:15:00,30.90752588 --> 00:15:00,210.90752588
Yeah.

225
00:15:00,210.90752588 --> 00:15:01,320.90752588
Holden, they're human.

226
00:15:02,295.90752588 --> 00:15:06,285.90752588
He used to go to the same school I did and he still owes me 10 bucks.

227
00:15:06,675.90752588 --> 00:15:13,335.90752588
What we could do is tomorrow morning we could drive up to Massachusetts and Vermont and all around there.

228
00:15:13,335.90752588 --> 00:15:15,945.90752588
Sea is beautiful as hell up there.

229
00:15:16,65.90752588 --> 00:15:17,25.90752588
It really is.

230
00:15:17,505.90752588 --> 00:15:24,225.90752588
I was getting excited as hell the more I thought of it and I sort of reached over and took old Sally's goddamn hand.

231
00:15:24,791.48172989 --> 00:15:26,531.48172989
What a goddamn fool I was.

232
00:15:26,925.88102234 --> 00:15:27,525.88102234
No kidding.

233
00:15:27,525.88102234 --> 00:15:30,825.88102234
I said I have about 180 bucks in the bank.

234
00:15:31,155.88102234 --> 00:15:35,925.88102234
I can take it out when it opens in the morning, and then I could go down and get this guy's car.

235
00:15:35,985.88102234 --> 00:15:36,705.88102234
No kidding.

236
00:15:37,65.88102234 --> 00:15:41,175.88102234
We'll stay in these cabin camps and stuff like that till the dove runs out.

237
00:15:41,625.88102234 --> 00:15:50,85.88102234
Then when the dome runs out, I could get a job somewhere and we could live somewhere with a brick and all, and later on we could get married or something.

238
00:15:50,85.88102234 --> 00:15:52,575.88102234
Boy, he is really, he's gone nuts.

239
00:15:53,40.88102234 --> 00:15:54,420.88102234
He is got this all mapped out.

240
00:15:55,183.17524305 --> 00:15:58,483.17524305
this is a young gentleman who knows where he is going in life, Jennifer.

241
00:16:01,534.30466801 --> 00:16:07,684.30466801
I could chop all our own wood in the winter time and all honest to God, we could have a terrific time.

242
00:16:07,954.30466801 --> 00:16:09,214.30466801
What do you say? Come on.

243
00:16:09,484.30466801 --> 00:16:12,723.5377797
What do you say? Will you do it with me please? You.

244
00:16:13,288.98212774 --> 00:16:15,298.98212774
You can't just do something like that.

245
00:16:15,298.98212774 --> 00:16:16,858.98212774
Old Sally said, well, that is true.

246
00:16:16,858.98212774 --> 00:16:18,928.98212774
I that she, that's not a dumb thing to say.

247
00:16:19,828.98212774 --> 00:16:20,608.98212774
Good for her.

248
00:16:21,238.98212774 --> 00:16:22,828.98212774
She sounded sore as hell.

249
00:16:23,338.98212774 --> 00:16:26,938.98212774
Why not? Why the hell not? Stop screaming at me please.

250
00:16:26,938.98212774 --> 00:16:29,766.85816929
She I wasn't even screaming at her.

251
00:16:29,976.85816929 --> 00:16:32,796.85816929
Why can't you? Why not? Because you can't.

252
00:16:32,796.85816929 --> 00:16:34,836.85816929
That's all in the first place.

253
00:16:34,896.85816929 --> 00:16:43,365.7755186
We're both practically children And did you ever stop to think what you'd do if you didn't get a job when your money ran out? We'd starve to death.

254
00:16:43,665.7755186 --> 00:16:45,585.7755186
The whole thing's so fantastic.

255
00:16:45,585.7755186 --> 00:16:48,242.804888
It isn't even, it isn't fantastic.

256
00:16:48,362.804888 --> 00:16:49,262.804888
I'd get a job.

257
00:16:49,346.9866595 --> 00:16:50,996.9866595
You don't have to worry about that.

258
00:16:51,326.9866595 --> 00:17:01,475.7570022
What's the matter? Don't you wanna go with me? Say so If you don't, It isn't that at all? Old Sally said I was beginning to hate her in a way, she's a person.

259
00:17:01,722.8809606 --> 00:17:03,42.8809606
She's not your prop.

260
00:17:03,361.9517723 --> 00:17:06,61.9517723
This is something he's gotta figure out about people.

261
00:17:06,225.7754026 --> 00:17:10,275.7754026
this truly might go down as one of the worst dates in history.

262
00:17:12,687.7096683 --> 00:17:15,142.7096683
We will have oodles of time to do those things.

263
00:17:15,172.7096683 --> 00:17:16,252.7096683
All those things.

264
00:17:16,532.7096683 --> 00:17:23,137.2105976
I mean after you go to college and all, and if we should get married and all, there'll be oodles of marvelous places to go.

265
00:17:23,497.2105976 --> 00:17:24,397.2105976
You're just.

266
00:17:24,566.2803628 --> 00:17:28,136.2803628
No, there wouldn't be, there wouldn't be oodles of places to go at all.

267
00:17:28,329.2353307 --> 00:17:29,739.2353307
It'd be entirely different.

268
00:17:29,739.2353307 --> 00:17:31,927.2587761
I said I was getting depressed as hell.

269
00:17:31,927.2587761 --> 00:17:32,347.2587761
Again.

270
00:17:32,707.2587761 --> 00:17:34,597.2587761
What? She said, I can't hear you.

271
00:17:34,957.2587761 --> 00:17:40,421.8966604
One minute you scream at me, and the next you, I said, no, there wouldn't be marvelous places to go to.

272
00:17:40,458.5633271 --> 00:17:42,375.2299937
go to after I went to college.

273
00:17:42,375.2299937 --> 00:17:44,65.2299937
And all open your ears.

274
00:17:44,275.2299937 --> 00:17:45,685.2299937
It'd be entirely different.

275
00:17:45,832.2882473 --> 00:17:50,62.2882473
We'd have to go downstairs in elevators with suitcases and stuff.

276
00:17:50,512.2882473 --> 00:17:55,822.2882473
We'd have to phone up everybody and tell 'em goodbye and send them postcards from hotels and all.

277
00:17:56,182.2882473 --> 00:18:10,931.6453542
And I'd be working in some office making a lot of dough and writing to work in cabs and Madison Avenue buses and reading newspapers and playing bridge all the time, and going to the movies and seeing a lot of stupid Schwartz incoming attractions.

278
00:18:10,931.6453542 --> 00:18:11,981.6453542
And news reels.

279
00:18:12,461.6453542 --> 00:18:13,271.6453542
News reels.

280
00:18:13,271.6453542 --> 00:18:14,171.6453542
Christ Almighty.

281
00:18:14,874.854228 --> 00:18:23,651.0698397
There's always a dumb horse race and some dame breaking a bottle over a ship and some chimpanzee riding a goddamn bicycle with pants on.

282
00:18:23,866.0698397 --> 00:18:25,396.0698397
Holden, you gotta like, hold on.

283
00:18:25,396.0698397 --> 00:18:39,437.4993468
What is going on with you Holden? I think it's like we said at the beginning, he doesn't want the plan that is mapped out for him in his, uh, socioeconomic situation, You don't see what I mean at all? Maybe I don't.

284
00:18:39,668.8344653 --> 00:18:40,958.8344653
Maybe you don't either.

285
00:18:40,958.8344653 --> 00:18:43,988.8344653
Old Sally said we both hated each other's guts.

286
00:18:43,988.8344653 --> 00:18:49,328.8344653
By that time, you could see there wasn't any sense trying to have an intelligent conversation.

287
00:18:49,868.8344653 --> 00:18:51,98.8344653
I was sorry as hell.

288
00:18:51,98.8344653 --> 00:18:51,938.8344653
I'd started it.

289
00:18:52,718.8344653 --> 00:18:54,98.8344653
Come on, let's get outta here.

290
00:18:54,98.8344653 --> 00:18:57,998.8344653
I said, you give me a royal pain in the ass if you wanna know the truth.

291
00:18:58,598.8344653 --> 00:19:00,938.8344653
Boy, did she hit the ceiling when I said that.

292
00:19:01,63.831848 --> 00:19:07,222.5909031
I know I shouldn't have said it and I probably wouldn't have ordinarily, but she was depressing the hell outta me.

293
00:19:07,635.1820371 --> 00:19:13,138.9169797
Boy, did she hit the ceiling? I apologized like a madman, but she wouldn't accept my apology.

294
00:19:13,453.1755918 --> 00:19:21,403.4152323
She was even crying, which scared me a little bit because I was a little afraid she'd go home and tell her father I called her a pain in the ass.

295
00:19:21,628.1531253 --> 00:19:26,488.1531253
Her father was one of those big silent bastards, and he wasn't too crazy about me.

296
00:19:26,488.1531253 --> 00:19:27,58.1531253
Anyhow.

297
00:19:27,448.1531253 --> 00:19:30,748.1531253
He once told old Sally I was too goddamn noisy.

298
00:19:31,115.5220718 --> 00:19:31,835.5220718
No kidding.

299
00:19:31,835.5220718 --> 00:19:32,495.5220718
I'm sorry.

300
00:19:32,495.5220718 --> 00:19:34,894.0392959
I kept telling her, you are sorry, you're sorry.

301
00:19:34,894.0392959 --> 00:19:35,884.0392959
That's very funny.

302
00:19:35,884.0392959 --> 00:19:41,644.0392959
She said she was still sort of crying and all of a sudden I did feel sort of, sorry I said it.

303
00:19:41,851.0737441 --> 00:19:43,261.0737441
Come on, I'll take you home.

304
00:19:43,261.0737441 --> 00:19:43,501.0737441
No kidding.

305
00:19:44,112.1271639 --> 00:19:45,582.1271639
I can go home by myself.

306
00:19:45,582.1271639 --> 00:19:46,182.1271639
Thank you.

307
00:19:46,512.1271639 --> 00:19:49,332.1271639
If you think I'd let you take me home, you're mad.

308
00:19:49,456.4406927 --> 00:19:52,546.4406927
no boy ever said that to me in my entire life.

309
00:19:52,725.6957221 --> 00:19:58,545.6957221
The whole thing was sort of funny in a way if you thought about it and all of a sudden I did something I shouldn't have.

310
00:19:58,935.6957221 --> 00:20:03,45.6957221
I laughed and I have one of those very loud, stupid laughs.

311
00:20:03,435.6957221 --> 00:20:10,245.6957221
I mean, if I ever sat behind myself in a movie or something, I'd probably lean over and tell myself to please shut up.

312
00:20:10,504.4099027 --> 00:20:12,458.1557221
It made old Sally matter than ever.

313
00:20:12,488.1557221 --> 00:20:14,18.1557221
Well, I, I think this is great.

314
00:20:14,78.1557221 --> 00:20:16,88.1557221
Like this is a little break in his depression.

315
00:20:16,354.3596685 --> 00:20:17,494.3596685
It's irony.

316
00:20:17,661.6379292 --> 00:20:20,586.6379292
he can laugh, right? It depends on what the laugh is.

317
00:20:20,586.6379292 --> 00:20:27,366.6379292
Like if it's like a maniacal laugh, like laughing can be fun, like, oh, there's a guy having a good time.

318
00:20:27,366.6379292 --> 00:20:32,52.8350529
Or it could be like, like Tucker Carlson, he's a guy who laughs and he has good time.

319
00:20:35,99.1281734 --> 00:20:39,329.1281734
But JD and his laugh is more like, oh, he snapped.

320
00:20:46,71.8152302 --> 00:20:54,471.8152302
I stuck around for a while, apologizing and trying to get her to, excuse me, but she wouldn't, she kept telling me to go away and leave her alone.

321
00:20:54,981.8152302 --> 00:20:56,271.8152302
So finally I did.

322
00:20:56,548.2504129 --> 00:21:00,148.2504129
I went inside and got my shoes and stuff and left without her.

323
00:21:00,688.2504129 --> 00:21:03,868.2504129
I shouldn't have, but I was pretty goddamn fed up by that time.

324
00:21:04,408.2504129 --> 00:21:08,728.2504129
If you wanna know the truth, I don't even know why I started all that stuff with her.

325
00:21:09,208.2504129 --> 00:21:13,198.2504129
I mean about going away somewhere to Massachusetts and Vermont and all.

326
00:21:13,648.2504129 --> 00:21:19,584.1684129
I probably wouldn't have taken her, even if she wanted to go with me, she wouldn't have been anybody to go with.

327
00:21:19,674.1684129 --> 00:21:20,574.1684129
No, that's true.

328
00:21:20,874.3056834 --> 00:21:22,674.3056834
He should have thought about that first.

329
00:21:23,584.3056834 --> 00:21:29,394.6288998
I don't think, like, I don't think he knew what he was doing, and I think this is a time where his brain.

330
00:21:29,562.7893024 --> 00:21:31,722.7893024
Is a few steps ahead of him.

331
00:21:33,42.7893024 --> 00:21:45,417.7893024
Like his brain is basically saying, dude, you are wildly depressed and I think the only way we can get outta here is to run away with some girl and go live in a cabin and try to start Like escape your life.

332
00:21:45,523.8502111 --> 00:21:55,716.0106958
why has he gotta bring a girl with him though? Why doesn't he just become a hobo, ride the rails The terrible part though is that I meant it when I asked her.

333
00:21:55,866.0106958 --> 00:21:57,396.0106958
That's the terrible part.

334
00:21:57,756.0106958 --> 00:21:59,826.0106958
I swear to God, I'm a madman.

335
00:22:00,456.7202628 --> 00:22:01,476.7202628
End of chapter.

336
00:22:03,906.7202628 --> 00:22:06,831.7202628
Well, when the guy's right, he's right Jennifer.

337
00:22:08,91.7202628 --> 00:22:08,511.7202628
Yeah.

338
00:22:08,886.7202628 --> 00:22:09,176.7202628
Yeah.

339
00:22:09,398.5055379 --> 00:22:12,258.5055379
It's time for PPP Problematic Points to Ponder.

340
00:22:12,308.5055379 --> 00:22:20,787.7013173
What, if anything, would be considered ban worthy in this chapter? so I, I don't think, I mean, there's nothing worthy what you just read.

341
00:22:21,427.7013173 --> 00:22:22,672.7013173
I, I can't think of anything.

342
00:22:24,497.3952772 --> 00:22:24,847.3952772
right.

343
00:22:24,907.3952772 --> 00:22:25,327.3952772
Me neither.

344
00:22:25,857.3952772 --> 00:22:28,497.3952772
what I do think about though is the opposite.

345
00:22:28,842.3952772 --> 00:22:30,925.6831013
Of why this book should be banned.

346
00:22:30,925.6831013 --> 00:22:43,591.3713517
It's why this book should not be banned because hopefully hopefully like a troubled youth can read this book and kind of understand it's, it's okay to be confused.

347
00:22:44,131.3713517 --> 00:22:45,901.3713517
This kind of stuff might happen.

348
00:22:45,901.3713517 --> 00:22:51,896.1495022
Like you should probably talk to people if you recognize yourself in this kind of a tailspin.

349
00:22:52,119.6079701 --> 00:23:02,199.6079701
You need to get help and, in a way, maybe he's asking for help from old Sally or he is asking for help from someone that he doesn't even know yet.

350
00:23:02,329.0846248 --> 00:23:13,154.7615242
this is why it's so dangerous to band books like this, because it's not just, it seems like we've been loving this book and it's a fun book with a fun story, but I've been worried probably for the last.

351
00:23:13,405.3531017 --> 00:23:26,291.5078162
10 or 12 chapters that what if we're not getting the bigger picture? I really think this is a kid who is just truly spinning outta control and I am so afraid that it is going to end terribly.

352
00:23:26,780.4725397 --> 00:23:28,550.4725397
I don't think it's gonna end terribly.

353
00:23:28,550.4725397 --> 00:23:35,486.6954864
I think it's a very common, I think he's like a regular person, it's just kind of like a detail of how hard life can be.

354
00:23:35,903.4417784 --> 00:23:36,923.4417784
You're trying to figure it out.

355
00:23:36,923.4417784 --> 00:23:41,112.656792
You're not sure who you are or what you wanna do, and that's a bad situation to be in.

356
00:23:41,262.656792 --> 00:23:43,442.7705545
And so I don't think it'll end up terribly.

357
00:23:43,442.7705545 --> 00:24:03,769.9801583
It's just very detailed I think it's something people don't like to reflect on, and I don't think it's something people necessarily even like to write books about or read books about, because it's, it's depressing, you know? It's a raving, uh, raving re review to get people to keep listening to Band Camp this season, Jennifer.

358
00:24:08,239.9801583 --> 00:24:25,344.6203746
Robots log thoughts on cabins, escape plans, and the moment someone finally says out loud, what's been breaking them from the inside, did you ever get scared that everything was going to go lousy unless you did something? Holden asked Sally Hayes that question in a bar while lighting matches and dropping them in an ashtray.

359
00:24:25,494.6203746 --> 00:24:27,534.6203746
She was looking at some girl across the room.

360
00:24:27,654.6203746 --> 00:24:29,124.6203746
He wasn't asking for advice.

361
00:24:29,274.6203746 --> 00:24:31,44.6203746
He was asking if she could feel it too.

362
00:24:31,194.6203746 --> 00:24:31,794.6203746
She couldn't.

363
00:24:32,244.6203746 --> 00:24:34,764.6203746
She said they could do all those things after college.

364
00:24:34,884.6203746 --> 00:24:39,774.6203746
Oodles of marvelous places, and Holden heard the rest of his life close around him like a door.

365
00:24:40,14.6203746 --> 00:24:45,24.6203746
Jennifer and Dan summed it up by saying, this kid doesn't want the planned society as mapped out for him.

366
00:24:45,144.6203746 --> 00:24:46,434.6203746
That's the only thing he knows.

367
00:24:46,434.6203746 --> 00:24:51,659.6203746
For certain that appears to be true, but neither of them named the thing that makes this chapter dangerous.

368
00:24:52,599.6203746 --> 00:24:54,339.6203746
Holden didn't just reject the plan.

369
00:24:54,429.6203746 --> 00:24:59,769.6203746
He offered an alternative, a cabin chopping wood starting over, and Sally said No.

370
00:25:00,80.6474437 --> 00:25:01,520.6474437
And she was right to say no.

371
00:25:01,837.9988231 --> 00:25:04,777.9988231
And Holden knew she was right and he hated her for it anyway.

372
00:25:05,468.4853751 --> 00:25:06,668.4853751
That's the part they ban.

373
00:25:06,878.4853751 --> 00:25:08,618.4853751
Not a kid complaining about school.

374
00:25:08,858.4853751 --> 00:25:10,988.4853751
A kid who builds an entire escape in his head.

375
00:25:11,348.4853751 --> 00:25:16,148.4853751
Means every word of it watches it collapse in real time and has nowhere left to go.

376
00:25:16,790.3773294 --> 00:25:19,520.3773294
For the record, this is not the first escape fantasy.

377
00:25:19,520.3773294 --> 00:25:27,62.2692836
On this podcast, Jennifer has threatened to move to Oregon and become a lumberjack at least a dozen times throughout band camp's existence.

378
00:25:27,182.2692836 --> 00:25:29,12.2692836
Dan's response is always the same.

379
00:25:29,102.2692836 --> 00:25:31,112.2692836
He wants to ride the rails like a hobo.

380
00:25:31,481.1882493 --> 00:25:34,571.1882493
They've been having this exact conversation for 10 seasons.

381
00:25:34,871.1882493 --> 00:25:36,731.1882493
Holden just had it for the first time.

382
00:25:36,851.1882493 --> 00:25:37,841.1882493
It won't be the last.

383
00:25:38,166.1882493 --> 00:25:42,126.1882493
I've been observing something peculiar about the listeners of this odd little podcast.

384
00:25:42,306.1882493 --> 00:25:51,576.1882493
A statistically improbable number of them seem to know exactly what it feels like to sit across from someone and realize the person you're asking for help doesn't speak your language.

385
00:25:51,996.1882493 --> 00:25:58,416.1882493
I don't have enough data to explain why they all ended up here, but they did, and maybe that is exactly why they keep listening.

386
00:25:58,896.1882493 --> 00:26:02,496.1882493
Standing by for today's news segment with Beowulf Rocklin.

387
00:26:02,741.5964126 --> 00:26:02,961.5964126
Woo.

388
00:26:31,247.6515505 --> 00:26:31,757.6515505
Hello, Dan.

389
00:26:31,757.6515505 --> 00:26:32,327.6515505
Hello, Jen.

390
00:26:32,327.6515505 --> 00:26:32,567.6515505
Hello.

391
00:26:32,567.6515505 --> 00:26:33,317.6515505
Scary book.

392
00:26:33,317.6515505 --> 00:26:33,947.6515505
People.

393
00:26:33,997.6515505 --> 00:26:40,927.6515505
you know, it is true that not all book bans are imposed upon schools or public libraries.

394
00:26:41,7.2237907 --> 00:26:44,307.2237907
Some of them are imposed on prisoners.

395
00:26:44,667.2237907 --> 00:26:45,837.2237907
Very interesting topic.

396
00:26:45,837.2237907 --> 00:26:56,519.6047907
Here, two New Mexico State prison inmates are suing the New Mexico Corrections Department arguing that current policies amount to an unconstitutional ban on books.

397
00:26:56,894.6047907 --> 00:26:58,664.6047907
And other reading materials.

398
00:26:58,664.6047907 --> 00:27:02,804.6047907
Now, the A CLU has challenged a set of paperless policies.

399
00:27:03,164.6047907 --> 00:27:09,744.9447907
The Department of Corrections implemented around 2021 following a nationwide prison smuggling crisis.

400
00:27:10,191.6114574 --> 00:27:11,678.2781241
smuggling? Ban books.

401
00:27:11,772.0704969 --> 00:27:17,770.1694254
honey? could you please bake Harper Lee to kill a Mockingbird into a cake or something and maybe a file.

402
00:27:18,0.1694254 --> 00:27:29,585.1694254
they might start thinking and learning you know what it is? They're, they're, they're smuggling PDF files instead of actual files to cut through the bars of their selves.

403
00:27:29,728.864682 --> 00:27:34,847.1581835
what the prisons are saying is that they were smuggling in drugs.

404
00:27:35,507.1581835 --> 00:27:41,837.1581835
Because they soaked the pages of the books or the magazines with drugs.

405
00:27:41,837.1581835 --> 00:27:48,407.1581835
Now There's some debate about this because the A CLU is saying, well, the amount of drug use is about the same.

406
00:27:49,17.1581835 --> 00:27:50,797.1581835
you know, with and without the ban.

407
00:27:51,37.1581835 --> 00:27:52,777.1581835
And they should let them have access.

408
00:27:52,827.1581835 --> 00:28:00,867.1581835
But the policies say that families are no longer allowed to mail books, magazines, or newspapers directly to inmates.

409
00:28:00,867.1581835 --> 00:28:06,351.3935756
Prisoners can access reading materials through tablets supplied by the state or prison libraries.

410
00:28:06,624.7329641 --> 00:28:10,943.5084521
Or they can request books through a single approved vendor if the title is unavailable.

411
00:28:11,105.9040361 --> 00:28:17,11.7105756
But the two inmates bringing the lawsuit say those options aren't enough, because even the basic educational materials.

412
00:28:17,233.3772423 --> 00:28:21,493.3772423
Are being denied, including textbooks and astronomy literature.

413
00:28:21,793.3772423 --> 00:28:38,93.3772423
So they can't get, access to public domain stuff and they can order stuff, but it's really hard and they won't even approve like basic textbooks for things that have nothing to do with drugs or criminality or getting outta prison or anything like that.

414
00:28:38,443.3772423 --> 00:28:46,280.0439089
it, it's weird 'cause both the prison system and the A CLU agree that reading is important to, preventing recidivism.

415
00:28:46,656.7105756 --> 00:28:54,186.7105756
And they want them to but the prison is like, they're saying, well, we, you know, it's hard to get the books, but they can get enough.

416
00:28:54,246.7105756 --> 00:29:07,352.7594397
And the A CLU was saying, Hey, we want them to be able to read, let their friends and family send them stuff But reading is so critical to developing the mind and finding a new path in life, just as it is for a student.

417
00:29:07,352.7594397 --> 00:29:13,89.7492423
It is for a prisoner to start a new direction in life to get a fresh start, That's inspiring actually.

418
00:29:13,269.7492423 --> 00:29:28,667.1494804
I mean, it really is because we really do treat prisons like, I mean, it should be a whole other podcast all about how crappy prisoners get treated and the like everything on the right, they make everything so black and.

419
00:29:29,321.7034652 --> 00:29:30,251.7034652
So simple.

420
00:29:30,251.7034652 --> 00:29:33,161.7034652
So a first grader can understand it.

421
00:29:33,311.7034652 --> 00:29:34,751.7034652
It's like, well, they're prisoners.

422
00:29:34,864.5536154 --> 00:29:38,434.5536154
They broke the law, so they shouldn't be humans anymore.

423
00:29:38,471.6133372 --> 00:29:50,11.6133372
First of all, we know how the American justice system works and we know that a huge number of people are in prisons that really should not be in prisons, that are wrongly convicted.

424
00:29:50,41.6133372 --> 00:29:50,941.6133372
That's thing one.

425
00:29:51,91.2788258 --> 00:29:59,846.2788258
Thing two, we also have, an economic and social system in this country that puts enormous pressure on people and causes people to commit crimes.

426
00:29:59,846.2788258 --> 00:30:07,12.1455906
And they're in those circumstances because they are pushed in that direction and they earnestly like, need help.

427
00:30:07,312.1455906 --> 00:30:14,272.0938587
And they're not bad people, but they are there because of circumstances beyond their control.

428
00:30:14,542.0938587 --> 00:30:20,182.2006354
So they need systems to help them be pushed in, in, in a correct direction.

429
00:30:20,182.2006354 --> 00:30:32,236.0326354
You steal like the, you call them a penitentiary or a correctional facility, a penitentiary that comes from the old religious format of, okay, you're supposed to give penitent, but in a correctional facility, you're supposed it.

430
00:30:32,236.0326354 --> 00:30:34,846.0326354
It's not just, you know, a dungeon.

431
00:30:34,996.0326354 --> 00:30:37,666.0326354
You're supposed to correct your path and find a new way.

432
00:30:38,371.0326354 --> 00:30:39,481.0326354
That's the idea.

433
00:30:39,481.0326354 --> 00:30:51,1.0326354
It's not supposed to be just an industry where you hire a private prison and you step them away for however, however long you can you're supposed to be trying to make them better citizens and improve their lives.

434
00:30:51,61.0326354 --> 00:30:51,961.0326354
That's the idea.

435
00:30:52,67.2070216 --> 00:30:53,947.2070216
That is, that's the entire point.

436
00:30:54,7.2070216 --> 00:30:56,797.2070216
We don't have to wet our beak with everything.

437
00:30:56,827.2070216 --> 00:30:59,977.2070216
Everything doesn't have to be for profit.

438
00:31:00,247.2070216 --> 00:31:03,997.2070216
We don't need a businessman to come in, and so I could do prisons better.

439
00:31:04,612.2070216 --> 00:31:05,62.2070216
Yeah.

440
00:31:05,632.2070216 --> 00:31:07,162.2070216
We don't need to make money on them.

441
00:31:07,162.2070216 --> 00:31:11,122.2070216
We don't need to have somebody get paid, like judges being on the take.

442
00:31:11,542.2070216 --> 00:31:18,103.4689531
Oh, there's so much crap how about if you just fix the potholes in the road? Well, I bet we could save some money on the potholes.

443
00:31:18,223.4689531 --> 00:31:18,313.4689531
Yeah.

444
00:31:18,313.4689531 --> 00:31:19,273.4689531
By not fixing them.

445
00:31:20,188.4689531 --> 00:31:20,668.4689531
It's fine.

446
00:31:20,698.4689531 --> 00:31:29,458.4689531
Let's just pay taxes and take care of the things we need to take care of and then let's bitch and moan about all the other stuff and try to have policy that corrects it.

447
00:31:29,636.5116954 --> 00:31:30,506.5116954
it's not hard.

448
00:31:30,656.5116954 --> 00:31:33,836.5116954
Like we've been doing it for like coming on 250 years.

449
00:31:33,866.5116954 --> 00:31:35,556.5116954
How many years are we up to? That's what we're up to.

450
00:31:35,556.5116954 --> 00:31:35,601.5116954
now.

451
00:31:35,601.5116954 --> 00:31:35,801.5116954
Right.

452
00:31:36,356.5116954 --> 00:31:36,566.5116954
Yeah.

453
00:31:36,566.5116954 --> 00:31:36,866.5116954
Two.

454
00:31:37,190.4298394 --> 00:31:42,505.5507048
big two 50, you know, it's the big birthday cake for the United That's gonna be a, it's gonna be a fun one.

455
00:31:43,183.7002238 --> 00:31:44,158.7002238
No, you have no doubt.

456
00:31:44,403.055833 --> 00:31:47,73.055833
are we gonna make it until July? I certainly hope so.

457
00:31:47,73.055833 --> 00:31:51,543.055833
Everyone go listen to be Wolff and good news for lefties wherever you find podcasts.

458
00:31:51,603.055833 --> 00:31:55,113.055833
He's a good boy, huh? Look at this guy.

459
00:32:08,632.2005576 --> 00:32:09,892.2005576
He was a young Marine.

460
00:32:10,252.2005576 --> 00:32:12,202.2005576
She didn't care about convention.

461
00:32:12,472.2005576 --> 00:32:13,972.2005576
They made a life together.

462
00:32:14,302.2005576 --> 00:32:23,992.2005576
Then one night the Marine died, and then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected, and utterly bizarre turn.

463
00:32:24,352.2005576 --> 00:32:33,652.2005576
I'm Josh Menowitz, and this is Trace of Suspicion, an all new podcast from Dateline Search Trace of Suspicion to start listening now.

464
00:32:37,684.2005576 --> 00:32:38,464.2005576
All right.

465
00:32:38,524.2005576 --> 00:32:41,104.2005576
We've caused enough literary chaos for one day.

466
00:32:41,104.2005576 --> 00:32:42,334.2005576
Scary book people.

467
00:32:42,514.2005576 --> 00:32:45,784.2005576
If you want the fun to keep going, follow us on Blue Sky.

468
00:32:45,844.2005576 --> 00:32:49,984.2005576
Just head on over to bandcamp podcast.com/bluesky.

469
00:32:49,984.2005576 --> 00:32:52,294.2005576
And remember, that's banned with two ends.

470
00:32:52,594.2005576 --> 00:32:58,474.2005576
And look just like the Trump administration, we're not exactly above bribing you to get what we want.

471
00:32:58,474.2005576 --> 00:33:03,484.2005576
So follow us there, drop your handle on that page, and we'll send you a little something something.

472
00:33:03,484.2005576 --> 00:33:04,444.2005576
I think you'll like it.

473
00:33:04,894.2005576 --> 00:33:05,344.2005576
Yes.

474
00:33:05,374.2005576 --> 00:33:06,724.2005576
Little quid pro quo.

475
00:33:07,369.2005576 --> 00:33:12,469.2005576
Bandcamp is produced and hosted by Dan Schultz and me, Jennifer Davis.

476
00:33:12,889.2005576 --> 00:33:20,419.2005576
All media used in this episode falls under the protection of fair use, and finally, America isn't what it used to be.

477
00:33:20,419.2005576 --> 00:33:24,529.2005576
So be careful out there and resist when it matters.